法王新闻 | 2001年04月

法王接受《觀察者》專訪

The Observer Interview with His Holiness Apr 29, 2001 (United Kingdom)

日期:2001年04月29日
地點:印度 達蘭沙拉 上密院
媒體:觀察者(英國)
記者:陸克哈定(BY Luke Harding)

西藏東部拉拓區極為遍遠,只有少數的牧民在那裡勉強維持著生活,照料他們的犛牛,在雪山環繞的廣大草原上流浪。
THE LHATOK region of eastern Tibet is about as remote as the country gets. Only a few hardy nomads eke out a living here, tending their yaks and wandering across a vast expanse of grassland enclosed by white mountains.

十五年前就在這裡鄔金欽列多傑誕生,一個將來會使中國政府困窘的嬰兒。
It was here 15 years ago that Ogyen Trinley Dorje was born, a baby whose life would eventually cause the Chinese government a great deal of embarrassment.

當他八歲時,一個搜尋團隊來到他父母的犛牛毛織的帳蓬,鄭重的宣佈他們的任務已經達成。他們已經找到噶瑪巴,一位藏傳佛教中最高領導者的轉世。
It was when he was eight that a search party arrived at his parents’ yak hair tent and solemnly announced that their mission was over. They had found the Karmapa, the latest incarnation of one of Tibetan Buddhism’s most senior leaders.

天空中出現了三個太陽。在此之前,「猜想我(自己)可能是噶瑪巴是極為不恭敬的事,」他昨天說。
Three suns promptly appeared in the sky. Before that, ‘it would have seemed extremely disrespectful to have imagined I might be the Karmapa,’ he said yesterday.

他們把鄔金欽列多傑用厚被包住帶去距離拉薩30里的楚布寺,此孩子的身份很快的被中國政府承認,並費時六年培養他為達賴喇嘛柔性的對手。
Dorje was bundled off to Tsurphu monastery, 30 miles from the capital, Lhasa. The boy’s status was swiftly recognised by the Chinese government, which spent six years grooming him as a pliant rival to the Dalai Lama.

到1999年下半年,噶瑪巴無法再忍受北京的約束。他從寺院屋頂跳上一部等候的車立刻開車上路。他設法通過了邊界,三天後到達了尼泊爾。「我們不知道如果被抓到的話他們會如何對待我們,那只有他們知道。」他昨晚說。
By late 1999, however, the Karmapa had had enough of Beijing’s script. He jumped off the monastery roof, got into a waiting car and was driven away. He managed to cross the border into Nepal three days later. ‘We didn’t know what they would have done had we been caught. Only they know that,’ he said last night.

噶瑪巴戲劇化的逃亡──呼應達賴喇嘛四十年前的逃亡──抓住了西方的想像力,使他成為名人。
The Karmapa’s dramatic escape – which echoed the Dalai Lama’s flight from Tibet 40 years earlier – captured the West’s imagination and made him a celebrity.

不過這也把年幼的喇嘛突然投入到政治棋局之中。在第一次和達賴喇嘛晤面不久之後,這個腳上長水泡,兩臉乾裂的噶瑪巴發現自己被關困在一個達蘭沙拉附近的寺院中。達蘭沙拉是印度北部落後的小山城,西藏流亡政府的所在地。
But it also plunged the boy lama into a political chess game. Shortly after greeting the Dalai Lama for the first time, with blistered feet and cracked cheeks, the Karmapa found himself more or less locked up in a monastery near Dharmasala, the scruffy hill station in northern India which is home to the Tibetan government in exile.

「我有時好奇,是誰剝奪了我的自由。」他說:「和我在西藏時沒有什麼不同,在那裡經常有人看管。」住在樓下的印度安全警察很少允許他外出。
‘I sometimes wondered who had taken my freedom away,’ he said. ‘It wasn’t that much different from my previous state in Tibet, where I was constantly watched.’ The Indian security guards who lived downstairs rarely allowed him out.

兩個月前,印度政府終於給予他政治庇護,並准許他舉行此次──初次與新聞記者的訪談。「他真可愛」,一個有點迷他的弟子冒出這句話,就在我被帶領到孩子的接待室前不久;牆上掛著佛像,點了蠟燭。
Two months ago, however, India finally granted him political asylum, allowing him to give this, his first full interview with a journalist. ‘He’s beautiful,’ one slightly dotty American disciple gushed, shortly before I was ushered into the boy’s reception room, decorated with Buddhist wall hangings and flickering candles.

她說對了。天使一般的兩頰和開朗表情豐富的臉,噶瑪巴怎麼看都是佛的轉世,他的信眾們都如此相信。
She was right. With cherubic red cheeks and an open, expressive face the Karmapa looked every inch an incarnation of Buddha, which his followers believe he is.

他是孩童時想過他是誰嗎?「非常單純的一個人。我從沒有想過我是噶瑪巴。」他說。
Had he as a young child had any idea who he was? ‘Very simply a human being. I never thought of myself as the Karmapa,’ he said.

鄔金欽列多傑是九個孩子中較小的。他家是牧民,每年三次在野花、雪山、群群犛牛、山羊、綿羊的荒涼草原中來來往往。
Dorje was one of the youngest of nine children. His family was nomadic, moving three times a year across an almost deserted landscape of wild flowers and mountains, herding yaks, goats and sheep.

「我的生活很像美國印第安人,」他回憶著說。「我們靠牲畜的油、肉和乳生活。是一個非常荒涼和自然的環境。也因此,在那裡大家對佛教非常虔誠。
‘We lived like native Americans,’ he recalled. ‘We survived on animal products such as butter, meat and milk. It was an extremely isolated and natural environment. Because of that in the region there was a great degree of faith in Buddhism.

「我的家境不富有也不窮困,」他補充說。在這浪漫的荒涼又沒有干擾的地方唯一的缺點是冬天,「冬季非常冷,還有刺骨的風。」噶瑪巴說。
‘My family was neither wealthy nor impoverished,’ he added. The only drawback to this romantically bleak and ‘undisturbed’ place was winter. ‘The winters were very cold, with biting wind,’ the Karmapa said.

他被認證為第十七世噶瑪巴之後的生活改變很大,他是十二世紀興起的西藏佛教中,強大的噶舉派的領導人。
His life was transformed after he was recognised as the seventeenth Karmapa, the head of the powerful Kagyu sect of Tibetan Buddhism which emerged in the twelfth century.

1992年他在楚布寺陞座之後,中國共產黨官員們開始奉承他。他們安排他在中國旅遊,給他各種玩具──他最喜歡的是一個遙控卡車──並安排他和中國主席江澤民會面。
Chinese Communist Party officials started courting him soon after he was installed in Tsurphu monastery in 1992. They whisked him off on tours of China, showered him with toys – his favourite was a remote controlled lorry – and introduced him to Jiang Zemin, the Chinese President.

「整件事對我來說像是渡假或旅遊,」他說。「身為西藏人,我想像中的共產政府是負面的,對我們有傷害。但是在天安門一個活動中見到江澤民時,我對他的印象是中性的。我對他沒有好或壞的印象。」
‘The whole thing was presented to me as if it was a vacation or tour,’ he said. ‘As a Tibetan, I had thought of the Communist government as something that was negative, which was harming us. But when I met Jiang Zemin at a function in Tiananmen Square my impression of him was neutral. I didn’t get the impression of him as either good or bad.’

但是被達賴喇嘛認證的這位噶瑪巴,卻絕不願做北京的被保護者(傀儡)。他曾經多次清楚的表示他要去印度見他的宗教老師,每次都遭中國政府拒絕。
But the Karmapa, who had been recognised by the Dalai Lama, never intended to be Beijing’s protege. He made it clear he wanted to go to India to meet several of his religious teachers who were in exile there. The Chinese government refused, repeatedly.

所以在仔細考慮了一年之後決定離開,他和少數隨從,包括他的姊姊Ngodup Palzom(註:他的姊姊在噶瑪巴出走前,已先到尼泊爾讀書),在黑夜中啟程穿過西藏西部,奔向自由。
So after mulling over an escape for a year, he and a handful of followers, including his sister Ngodup Palzom, set off across western Tibet in darkness, intent on reaching freedom.

「路上有五個到六個關卡。因為我們是晚上行車,路是開放的,我們到第一個軍營時,有人用電筒照我們,我和兩個隨從跳下車,繞過軍營步行過山丘。其他的沒有問什麼,都通過了。我們再會合,順利駕車經過最後一個軍營。」
‘There were five or six checkpoints across the road. But since we were driving at night the barriers were open. We reached the first of two army camps. Someone shone a flashlight at us, so I jumped out with two attendants and circumvented the camp by walking over the hills. ‘The others travelled through, unquestioned. We rejoined them, and drove through the final camp unchallenged.’

他們騎馬穿越尼泊爾,然後乘直升機和徒步進入印度。到達後,噶瑪巴實質上被印度的情治單位關在達蘭沙拉的上密院中(Gyuto Monastery)。
They crossed Nepal on horseback, by helicopter and on foot to enter India, where the Karmapa was virtually imprisoned by intelligence agents in Gyuto Monastery, near Dharamsala.

噶瑪巴很清楚的表示他想前往他在錫金的傳承主寺──隆德寺。但到目前為止,印度政府不讓他去。中國從來沒有接受錫金是印度的一部份,官員似乎擔心法王去錫金會更得罪北京。
The Karmapa has made it clear he wants to travel to his sect’s principal monastery, Rumtek, in Sikkim. But so far the Indian government has prevented him from going. China has never accepted Sikkim as part of India, and it seems officials fear his presence there would further offend Beijing.

噶瑪巴的出走讓中國政府非常難堪,中國政府發表了一個荒唐的聲明,說法王去印度的目的是為了取回黑寶冠和法器。並暗示不久他就會回來。
The Chinese government, for which the Karmapa’s flight was a public relations disaster, issued a ludicrous statement after his escape claiming that he had gone to India merely to collect a sacred black hat and religious instruments. He would be back soon, they hinted.

但是他告訴我:「我現在是難民身份,我不打算回西藏,除非尊貴的達賴喇嘛回去。」
But he told me: ‘Having received the status of a refugee I don’t plan to return to Tibet unless the Dalai Lama does.’

目前,他和他的姊姊大部份時間住在寺院裡。他們和留在西藏的父母沒有連繫。
Meanwhile, he and his sister still spend most of their time in the monastery. They have had no contact with their family left behind in Tibet.

噶瑪巴養了一隻北京狗Dekyi和一隻白色鳳冠鸚鵡,大部份時間研讀佛法和接見弟子,包括李察基爾(Richard Gere)和皮爾斯布朗斯南(Pierce Brosnan)。他也作詩、讀詩和繪畫。「我自已研究繪畫,沒有指導老師,」他說。
The Karmapa, who has acquired a Pekinese dog, Dekyi, and a white cockatoo, spends most of his days studying Buddhist texts and meeting disciples, who include Richard Gere and Pierce Brosnan. He also writes poetry, reads poems and paints. ‘I’m exploring painting myself without instruction,’ he said.

噶瑪巴是非常認真和特殊聰明的十五歲孩子。很少人懷疑他成為西藏未來領導者的資格。雖然他教派中有一位反對者,指責他是中國的傀儡,並指定另一位噶瑪巴來取代他。
The Karmapa is clearly a serious and exceptionally intelligent 15-year-old. Few can doubt his credentials as a future Tibetan leader, although one dissident regent in his sect has accused him of being a Chinese stooge, and appointed a rival Karmapa in his place.

傀儡的指控似乎沒有根據。達賴喇嘛已經排除他作為可能的接班人。但是很少人懷疑他會成為現在六十五歲的達賴喇嘛去世後,在轉世未找到之前這段空間期中的關鍵人物。
The stooge claim seems to be unfounded. The Dalai Lama has ruled out the Karmapa as a potential successor. Yet few doubt he is likely to fill the interregnum which would follow the 65-year-old Dalai Lama’s death, before the leader’s next incarnation is discovered.

訪問結束,我們走向噶瑪巴的屋頂陽台。這大孩子,抱著規矩的Dekyi,在紅、白、藍色的佛教教旗下讓攝影師為他拍照。
The interview over, we walk on to the Karmapa’s roof terrace. The boy, clutching a well-behaved Dekyi, poses for photographs beneath a red, white and blue Buddhist flag.

太陽在照耀,但是天空有雷聲。我們離西藏很遠,但是背後的雪山似乎在暗示他離棄的地方,可能是永遠。
The sun is shining but the sky is thunderous. We are far from Tibet, But the snow-covered mountains above hint at what the Karmapa has left behind, probably forever.